sistema verbale ebraico

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jwfelix
00lunedì 27 agosto 2007 12:15
In un forum ho trovato questo:

Cmq, se prendi una nostra Bibbia Hebraica troverai le due Yod
in Bereshit, 2:7 come "wayyitser adonai elohim". ed una Yod in 2:19 "wayitser adonai elohim".
Certamente essendo caratteri ebraici la traduzione in caratteri latini perde del suo contenuto.

(trad. italiana: formava il Signore D-o ..... )
Uso il termine "adonai" il Signore per non entrare in merito del "nome di D-o", punto capitale dei TdG.
Di cui noi ebrei siamo contrari, ma rispettiamo il lor costume di uso.

NOTA: io chiesi pure ad amici miei TdG, sia in Finlandia che quì a Bari con nessuna risposta .

Qualcuno ha una spiegazione del perchè 2 yod in un caso??? Questa persona dice che sono molti i casi simili.

FElix
Viviana.30
00lunedì 27 agosto 2007 21:45
Re:
jwfelix, 27/08/2007 12.15:

In un forum ho trovato questo:

Cmq, se prendi una nostra Bibbia Hebraica troverai le due Yod
in Bereshit, 2:7 come "wayyitser adonai elohim". ed una Yod in 2:19 "wayitser adonai elohim".
Certamente essendo caratteri ebraici la traduzione in caratteri latini perde del suo contenuto.

(trad. italiana: formava il Signore D-o ..... )
Uso il termine "adonai" il Signore per non entrare in merito del "nome di D-o", punto capitale dei TdG.
Di cui noi ebrei siamo contrari, ma rispettiamo il lor costume di uso.

NOTA: io chiesi pure ad amici miei TdG, sia in Finlandia che quì a Bari con nessuna risposta .

Qualcuno ha una spiegazione del perchè 2 yod in un caso??? Questa persona dice che sono molti i casi simili.

FElix



caro felix (ma che è il mio gatto) se ti può essere di aiuto , ma devi leggerti un pò di inglese

Ḥayyuj.

Dunash's criticism of Menahem gave occasion for a controversy between the latter's pupils and a pupil of Dunash. Although the two polemical treatises expressing the views of the respective parties did not materially extend grammatical knowledge beyond the point reached by Menahem and Dunash,they are highly important as evidences of unusual intellectual activity and interest in grammatical problems. The polemical treatise of Menahem's three pupils is especially remarkable from the fact that one of them, Judah b. David, was none other than Dunash's countryman Judah ben David (Abu Zechariah Yaḥya) Ḥayyuj, who finally, after the beginnings which have been described in the foregoing paragraphs, placed Hebrew grammar on a firm, permanent basis. In his two works discussing the weak and the double verb-roots Ḥayyuj at once put an end to all arbitrariness and chaos in dealing with linguistic phenomena. He applied to these roots the law of triliteralness, methodically carried out the laws of vowel-mutation, and separated the grammatical forms from one another. Creating in this way a scientific grammar of the most important and most difficult part of the Hebrew language, he became the creator of scientific Hebrew grammar as a whole, which his disciples and successors in Spain in the eleventh century developed zealously and with brilliant success. In his small work entitled "Tanḳiṭ" (Punctuation = "Niḳḳud") Ḥayyuj made some contributions to the grammar of the noun, and to the rules on vowels and accent. Ḥayyuj's works are written in Arabic, and Hebrew grammars continued to be written in that language in Spain. The influence of Arabic grammar became evident also in the terminology borrowed from it.

Ibn Janaḥ.

According to the well-founded assertion of the old historian Abraham ibn Daud, Abu al-Walid Merwan ibn Janaḥ (R. Jonah) completed the work begun by Ḥayyuj. His first book, "Al-Mustalḥaḳ," was a criticism and supplement to Ḥayyuj's two main works. His own chief work he named "Al-Tanḳiṭ" (minute examination or investigation), the Arabic equivalent of the Hebrew word "diḳ-duḳ"; but it is better known under the separate designations of its two parts, lexical and grammatical respectively. The latter is called "Al-Luma'" (in the Hebrew translation, "Riḳmah"), meaning the book of the "variegated flower-beds," because, in view of their diversified contents, the sections resemble such beds. In this standard book Abu al-Walid treats of all the branches of grammar proper, and he furnishes valuable contributions to syntax, rhetoric, and Biblical hermeneutics. In smaller preceding works, also, he touched on some questions of grammar. In the polemical work "Al-Tashwir," which has unfortunately been lost, he defended himself against the attacks of Samuel ibn Nagdela, the Nagid, in the so-called "Circular Letter of the Friends" ("Rasa'il al-Rifaḳ"). As Abu al-Walid said himself, he had occasion in this book "to touch upon many linguistic laws and to elucidate many principles of Hebrew grammar."

Grammarians of the 12th Century.

Samuel ibn Nagdela, the statesman and scholar, and a pupil of Ḥayyuj, wrote, in addition to the above-mentioned polemical treatises, other grammatical works, twenty in all, which, under the comprehensive name "Kitab al-Istighna'" (Hebr. "Sefer ha-'Osher"), were at one time among the standard works on Hebrew philology, but were lost at an early date. The zeal with which grammar was studied at the time of Samuel and his great antagonists in Spain is evident from the didactic poem, written in the form of an acrostic "ḳaṣidah," and entitled "'Anaḳ," which Solomon ibn Gabirol devoted to this science. A century later another great poet and thinker, Judah ha-Levi, devoted it portion of his "Cuzari" to phonetics and the grammatical structure of Hebrew. From the middle of the eleventh to the first half of the twelfth century there were a number of philologists among the leading Jews of Spain, who continued along the lines laid down by Ḥayyuj and Abu al-Walid, treating larger or smaller portions of the grammar in independent works. The most important grammarian among these immediate successors of Abu al-Walid was Moses ibn Gikatilla (Chiquitilla), called also Moses ha-Kohen, who wrote a book on grammatical gender, and translated Ḥayyuj's writings for the first time into Hebrew, adding comments and notes. His literary opponent, Judah ibn Bal'am, wrote, in addition to lexical works, a book on the Masoretic rules of vowels and accents. Isaac ibn Yashush of Toledo, known for his daring exegesis, wrote a book on the inflections; David ibn Hagar, rabbi at Granada, one on the vowels; and Levi ibn al-Tabban of Saragossa, a grammatical work under the title "Al-Miftaḥ," while Ibn Barun, his pupil, pointed out the grammatical relation between Hebrew and Arabic in his "Kitab al-Muwazanah," on the relation between the two languages—the most important monograph on this subject, part of which has been preserved. Another Spanish grammarian of the first half of the twelfth century is Abraham ibn Kamnial of Saragossa.

dal sito www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp


Vitale
00martedì 28 agosto 2007 11:48
Re:
jwfelix, 27/08/2007 12.15:

In un forum ho trovato questo:

Cmq, se prendi una nostra Bibbia Hebraica troverai le due Yod
in Bereshit, 2:7 come "wayyitser adonai elohim". ed una Yod in 2:19 "wayitser adonai elohim".
Certamente essendo caratteri ebraici la traduzione in caratteri latini perde del suo contenuto.

(trad. italiana: formava il Signore D-o ..... )
Uso il termine "adonai" il Signore per non entrare in merito del "nome di D-o", punto capitale dei TdG.
Di cui noi ebrei siamo contrari, ma rispettiamo il lor costume di uso.

NOTA: io chiesi pure ad amici miei TdG, sia in Finlandia che quì a Bari con nessuna risposta .

Qualcuno ha una spiegazione del perchè 2 yod in un caso??? Questa persona dice che sono molti i casi simili.

FElix


Il punto di vista ebraico sulla Torah
it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

"La Torah è il documento primario dell'ebraismo ed è la sorgente delle 613 mitzvot (613 precetti) e della maggior parte della sua struttura etica.
Secondo la tradizione questi libri furono dati a Mosè da Dio sul Monte Sinai, il dettato include sia le citazioni che ogni parola contenuta nel testo, anche frasi del tipo: Dio parlò a Mosè.... I rabbini hanno considerato che non soltanto le parole forniscono un messaggio divino ma sono anche portatrici di un messaggio che si estende oltre loro.
Hanno sostenuto che anche il più piccolo segno della lettera ebraica è stato messo là da Dio come insegnamento. A monito di questo viene posta una yod nella frase: Io sono il Signore tuo Dio ed in quella spesso ripetuta: E Dio disse a Mosè poiché la yod è il più piccolo segno indipendente dell'alfabeto ebraico."....

Dove vuoi arrivare [SM=g6898]

Vitale


barnabino
00martedì 28 agosto 2007 21:51
Hai provato a chiedere ad Abramo nel suo Forum Biblico? Io dovrei controllare alcune grammatiche che non ho sottomano.

Shalom

benimussoo
00mercoledì 29 agosto 2007 12:47
Re:
barnabino, 28/08/2007 21.51:

Hai provato a chiedere ad Abramo nel suo Forum Biblico? Io dovrei controllare alcune grammatiche che non ho sottomano.

Shalom




Barnabino , non hai nulla da dire sullo scritto in Inglese , magari li c'è qualche informazione che può aiutare la domanda di Felix [SM=x511479]


barnabino
00mercoledì 29 agosto 2007 13:46
A dire il vero non ho ben capito che nesso abbiano con la domanda di Felix, se parliamo di doppia yod non si parla di vocali ma di consonanti.

Dovrei fare una ricerca sulle grammatiche di Gesenius e Jouon, ma al momento non le ho sotto mano. Ho guardato qualche commentario ebraico ma non mi pare che attribuiscano grossa importanza teologica a quella variabile, ma ho solo dato uno sguardo superficiale, sicuramente Abramo ne sà di più.

Ciao

jwfelix
00mercoledì 29 agosto 2007 14:51
Re:
barnabino, 28/08/2007 21.51:

Hai provato a chiedere ad Abramo nel suo Forum Biblico? Io dovrei controllare alcune grammatiche che non ho sottomano.

Shalom




La risposta di Abramo la trovate qui

forumbiblico.forumfree.net/?t=19816389&st=0#entry174387820

FElix
don_AC64
00lunedì 3 settembre 2007 09:10
Doppia yod
Trattandosi di un verbo di prima yod, è normale che si riscontrino delle forme non regolari, al momento di aggiungere il waw inversivo. Non capisco tutta questa curiosità per una questione così banale.
mioooo
00martedì 4 settembre 2007 23:00
Re: Re:
jwfelix, 29/08/2007 14.51:



La risposta di Abramo la trovate qui

forumbiblico.forumfree.net/?t=19816389&st=0#entry174387820

FElix




ho trovato questo approfondimento

Yod - Verbi

AvrahamBaruch
00domenica 14 ottobre 2007 12:58
Anche qui questa discussione? Da noi, sul Forum Biblico si è trasformata in una discussione sulla grammatica e va ancora avanti.

Un caro saluto a tutti.

Shalom
jwfelix
00giovedì 15 novembre 2007 23:06
At the web-site of the Society of Biblical Literature there is a
review of Furuli doctoral dissertation. If you want to read it, you can
go to www.bookreviews.org and type "fururli" in the search
window.

www.bookreviews.org/pdf/5564_5860.pdf

Furuli, Rolf
A New Understanding of the Verbal System of
Classical Hebrew: An Attempt to Distinguish Between
Semantic and Pragmatic Factors
Øvre Smestadvei: Awatu, 2006. Pp. 508. Paper. 300 kr.
ISBN 8299463343.
John Kaltner
Rhodes College
Memphis, Tennessee
In this version of his 2005 University of Oslo dissertation, Rolf J. Furuli presents the
results of his analysis of all 79,574 finite and infinite verbal forms found in the Hebrew
Bible, the Qumran material, Ben Sira, and the inscriptions. He studies 4,261 of these
forms in detail, with particular attention to their temporal reference, modality, and
discourse functions, in order to determine how many conjugations are found in the
classical Hebrew verbal system. Going against the common view that there are four
conjugations, Furuli argues that there are only two because the waw prefix of wayyiqtol
and weqatal is a syntactic, not a semantic, marker. Therefore, they are not two
independent conjugations with semantic meanings distinct from yiqtol and qatal.
Furuli posits that all four of these forms, plus weyiqtol, can have past, present, and future
reference, showing that tense is not grammaticalized in classical Hebrew. In addition, all
of these forms can describe incomplete or completed actions, which argues against the
Hebrew conjugations representing aspects, at least in the usual sense of the word. Such
conclusions put him at odds with the dominant views regarding the Hebrew verbal
system, and Furuli attributes this difference to the uniqueness of the method he employs.
That unique approach is best reflected in the book’s subtitle—a distinction is made
between semantic and pragmatic factors, the latter designated here by the somewhat
lumbering phrase “conversational pragmatic implicature.” The entire corpus of classical
Hebrew is examined synchronically, and Furuli points out that a comprehensive analysis
that downplays diachronic issues distinguishes his study from previous ones. Along the
way, a number of traditional assumptions about the Hebrew verbal system are tested and
rejected: that the wayyiqtol has an older preterite antecedent; that the yiqtol with past
reference represents durative past; and that the qatal with future reference is best
understood as a prophetic perfect.
Furuli identifies the Masoretes as the unwitting inventors of the four-conjugation model
of the Hebrew verbal system. In unpointed texts only two conjugations are visible, the
prefix conjugation and the suffix conjugation, and some of these have a prefixed waw. But
in the MT four or five conjugations are visible due to the addition of vowel markings.
Furuli notes that the pointing was done before the rules of grammar had been firmly set,
so the Masoretes were basing their decisions on what they heard in the synagogue rather
than conforming to established grammatical norms. In other words, it was pragmatic
factors, rather than semantic ones, that most influenced the way the vowels were added to
the text. But as systematic study of Hebrew began in the century after the Masoretes
completed their work, grammarians mistakenly interpreted the verbal conjugations in
semantic terms and ignored the pragmatic factors. That approach has dominated ever
since, and this book is an appeal to scholars to consider the pragmatic dimension of the
verbal system and to adjust their understanding of it accordingly.
Furuli sees communication as the act of making some things visible and other things
invisible from the reservoir of possible meaning. It is the context that primarily does this,
and this is at the heart of the difference between semantics and pragmatics for him.
Semantics is concerned with words, which are stable and static, but pragmatics is
concerned with context, which is elusive and dynamic. The features of the verbal system
that cannot be changed or cancelled by the context comprise the semantic meaning, and
those features that can be changed are the pragmatic ones. Furuli identifies three among
the former: durativity, telicity, and dynamicity. Nothing in the context can cancel or
nullify these three features in a given verb, so they constitute the verb’s semantic
meaning.
The four Hebrew conjugations can be distinguished on the basis of morphology and
accent, but this does not prove they are semantically distinct. According to Furuli, the
statistics indicate that the four forms are not semantically fixed because there is no
uniform temporal distribution for any of them. Each can function in reference to the past,
present, and future, challenging the idea that tense is grammaticalized in classical
Hebrew. For example, by Furuli’s count, 6.9 percent of wayyiqtols have nonpast reference,
and 5.9 percent of weqatals have past reference. Similarly, 2,505 (18 percent) of qatals
have present reference, and 965 (6.9 percent) have future reference. Each conjugation is
used more with a particular time reference than with others, but Furuli claims this is due
to pragmatic factors that have nothing to do with semantics.
Furuli argues that yiqtol, wayyiqtol, and weyiqtol are one conjugation and that qatal and
weqatal are another, with the waw prefixes functioning simply as conjunctions. Often the
lack of an expected waw is a pragmatic feature of a text. For example, in 1,027 cases he
finds a yiqtol with past reference where he would expect to find a wayyiqtol. The most
common reason for this is that the author wanted another word element to precede the
verb, thus preventing the prefixed waw. This is what happens in 896 of those cases, and in
the other 131 the yiqtol is the initial word in the sentence. In this way, pragmatic features
allow Furuli to explain a grammatical irregularity that makes no sense from a semantic
point of view.
Throughout the work Furuli cautions against using modern languages such as English to
understand the Hebrew verbal system. This is particularly the case when it comes to the
concept of aspect. His study leads him to conclude that yiqtol, wayyiqtol, and weyiqtol
represent the imperfect aspect, while qatal and weqatal represent the perfect aspect. The
default form for past reference is qatal, and the default form for future is yiqtol, but other
forms can be used for each. Nonetheless, there are certain patterns that indicate that
particular verbal forms are used for particular purposes. Furuli’s general rule of thumb is
that when the requirement for precision is low any form can be used, but when it is high
certain forms must be used. This leads to a relationship between the aspects that is more
complicated than that found in English, as the following observations he makes about the
Hebrew aspects suggest: (1) both aspects make a part of the situation visible; (2) the
imperfect makes some of the details of an event visible, but the perfect does not; (3) the
imperfect makes a small part of an event visible, but the perfect makes a greater part
visible; (4) the imperfect can include either the beginning or the end of an event, but the
perfect can include both the beginning and the end; (5) unlike the perfect, the imperfect
can make visible a part before the beginning of an event and a part of the resulting state.
According to Furuli’s theory of how the Hebrew verbal system works, the authors chose
their conjugations and forms based on pragmatic considerations such as how much of an
event they wished to make visible.
In some places the evidence Furuli cites is ambiguous or open to other interpretations.
This is especially so in the poetic material, where it is more difficult to determine the
temporal references with certainty and precision. To his credit, Furuli acknowledges this
problem and, for the most part, focuses on passages that serve his purposes well. More
problematic is the lack of a comprehensive listing of all the data Furuli drew upon to
reach his conclusions. The reader is given dozens of tables of statistics and hundreds of
biblical passages, in both Hebrew and English, that illustrate and support Furuli’s
findings, but they represent just a fraction of the thousands of examples of usage that are
not cited or listed anywhere in the book. We therefore have to take Furuli’s word for it
that the somewhat limited evidence he does provide is representative of the large amount
of material left untreated. This is one of the drawbacks of linguistic theories that purport
to offer a revolutionary way of understanding an entire corpus of writings—they often
leave the reader wondering what is behind the curtain.
In addition to the occasional typo, in some places the Hebrew text does not match the
English translation of a passage (see, e.g., examples 4c on 186, 279 n. 165, and 7.5k on
360). A final critique concerns Furuli’s use of the cognate languages. He draws upon
Akkadian, Ugaritic, Phoenician, and Aramaic when he discusses whether or not an old
short prefixed form is the basis of wayyiqtol, but his analysis is somewhat superficial and
sweeping. In addition, he makes only a passing reference to Arabic. This is unfortunate
because it is well known that Arabic has preserved many ancient features that can be quite
valuable for biblical scholars seeking to understand obscure or unusual aspects of
Hebrew. In this case, the apocopated jussive form (majzum) in Arabic is a prominent
feature of its verbal system that Furuli should have studied carefully.
Semantic considerations have long dominated in treatments of the Hebrew verbal system,
and Furuli’s call to take into account pragmatic factors is an important one that is worth
considering. How his alternative model will be received remains to be seen, but at the
very least his work might encourage some to think of more than just semantics when
trying to understand the Hebrew verb.
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